tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621016516937695074.post1224151687453109271..comments2024-03-16T06:00:04.833-04:00Comments on Sham's Grog 'n Blog: D&D Cover to Cover, part 15Sham aka Davehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14329116400656617173noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621016516937695074.post-92035212687348573762011-01-27T02:41:11.214-05:002011-01-27T02:41:11.214-05:00“Hold Person: A spell similar to a Charm Person bu...<i><b> “Hold Person: A spell similar to a Charm Person but which is of limited duration and greater effect.”</b><br /><br />I don’t see how exactly this spell is better than Charm Person, except that it will potentially effect 1-4 targets, and can be used on a single target to force a saving throw at -2. It’s a spell which is just asking for clarification. Does it cause paralysis? Mental enthrallment? Bedazzlement and Bewilderment? Are targets simply ‘rooted’ in place, or are they incapacitated? For this spell to be of greater effect than Charm Person, I’d say the targets are incapacitated and unable to act for the duration of the spell, even if attacked.</i><br /><br />I read this to mean that Hold Person functions identically to Charm Person (that is, the victim is under the caster's control, is charmed), with the difference that this has a duration, can affect multiple victims, or one victim who recieves a penalty to the save.Gracnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621016516937695074.post-73119761563654738822010-10-26T10:23:17.874-04:002010-10-26T10:23:17.874-04:00As regards the turn, my copy specifies rounds of c...As regards the turn, my copy specifies rounds of combat in at least one place in Vol. III. Because many of the spells seem oriented towards utility rather than combat, I suspect that spells were not really intended to be cast in combat in most situations. With their increased fighting ability, magic-users would have been able to enter melee as well, though they would need support against many opponents, of course.<br /><br />As regards Hold Person and Charm, I think that charm does exactly what it says, puts the target 'under the influence' so that they can be suggested to do things, but with strong limitations on what they will actually do. Kill your friends wouldn't fly here, but you could probably tell them you were friendly and have them listen pretty easily, to have them halt combat. I'd like to check Chainmail to see exactly what the spells do there, if they are included.Skydyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12547022250810401131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621016516937695074.post-66308290002792084172008-11-26T16:11:00.000-05:002008-11-26T16:11:00.000-05:00Will: This is the fantastic side-effect of my ramb...Will: This is the fantastic side-effect of my ramblings here; I'm learning a lot from others as well as from actually reading these volumes. Thanks!<BR/><BR/>tussock: Yeah, the Chainmail Wizards are bad-ass. And I too like the counter-spell system in Chainmail.<BR/><BR/>The Slow/Haste thing is a result of all my 1e days. Part of that passage doesn't make sense (my own comments, I mean). The two simply counter one another, not by reacting together to bring the target back to normal, just by countering. The movement only bit makes sense, and I do think that perhaps it was always move only until 1e included attacks (or did it?). That's how we played it in 1e, anyway.Sham aka Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14329116400656617173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621016516937695074.post-86986553803463516492008-11-26T11:11:00.000-05:002008-11-26T11:11:00.000-05:00Countering is detailed in chainmail, 7+ on 2d6 for...Countering is detailed in chainmail, 7+ on 2d6 for a stronger wizard, 8+, 9+, 10+, or 11+ if lower level (for the five "levels" of chainmail wizard, at 2, 6, 8, 9, and 11th level D&D equivalents by name). It uses the whole turn for the countering wizard.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and chainmail's haste/slowness only modifies movement, +50%/-50%. When it says they counter the other, I think it's just a more reliable method for weaker wizards to negate the opposed spell in question. 5+ rather than 9+, or thereabouts.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Chainmail wizards are totally awesome, by the way. Fireball and Lightning-bolt at will, and other spells that change the whole battlefield.tussockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01624091727724404725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621016516937695074.post-33880745873988427752008-11-26T00:44:00.000-05:002008-11-26T00:44:00.000-05:00It's as if measurement of time in the game automat...<B>It's as if measurement of time in the game automatically shrinks to melee turns during comabt, but is otherwise measured in move/turns.</B><BR/><BR/>Exactly.<BR/><BR/>Glad I could contribute to your discussion.Will Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06379173017869751088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621016516937695074.post-65835460753505715712008-11-25T21:41:00.000-05:002008-11-25T21:41:00.000-05:00Will: I actually came to the same conclusion after...Will: I actually came to the same conclusion after my last comment; if a spell is clearly a non-melee spell (ESP, Light), or designed for movement (Levitate, Fly), duration is expressed in move/turns; combat spells (Hold Person, Fire Ball, Confusion) are expressed in melee turns instead.<BR/><BR/>It's as if measurement of time in the game automatically shrinks to melee turns during comabt, but is otherwise measured in move/turns.Sham aka Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14329116400656617173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621016516937695074.post-45549269200031661032008-11-25T21:06:00.000-05:002008-11-25T21:06:00.000-05:00I think for spell duration you can ask yourself on...I think for spell duration you can ask yourself one simple question: Is this a spell to be used in combat, or not?<BR/><BR/>Yes means "turns" are what we think of as rounds. No means regular 10-minute turns.<BR/><BR/>That's how I do it anyway.Will Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06379173017869751088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621016516937695074.post-44980457170702791732008-11-25T19:34:00.000-05:002008-11-25T19:34:00.000-05:00Will: Yeah, I think you're right in that turns was...Will: Yeah, I think you're right in that turns was used thusly ("It's your turn") and the move/turn was the 10 minute period consisting of 'two moves' in non-combat. This brings forth the question of spell durations for other castings, though...do they refer to turns (aka melee turns) or move/turns? If you look at spells like Levitate or Fly, which give move rates per turn, that might help discern the rest of the spell durations. Looks like we've hit on a topic worth exploring further.<BR/><BR/>Rod: Yes, that's my take on it as well. I'm reminded of Shea and Chalmers in <I>The Roaring Trumpet</I>, when Shea saw through the illusion on Jormungandr by accidentally having mead spilled in his eyes. <BR/><BR/>Snorri: You're right, good point. I hadn't thought to look back at Chainmail, but Counter-spells are indeed in the rules, right on p. 31. Good find!Sham aka Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14329116400656617173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621016516937695074.post-73051312283153551692008-11-25T16:24:00.000-05:002008-11-25T16:24:00.000-05:00I wonder know until which point wizards rules from...I wonder know until which point wizards rules from Chainmail still apply to Od&d. It might gives a good basis for counterspells. I use it like this on my french version.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621016516937695074.post-17736281835693013372008-11-25T16:04:00.000-05:002008-11-25T16:04:00.000-05:00Having read the de Camp/Stasheff "Compleat Enchant...Having read the de Camp/Stasheff "Compleat Enchanter" stories, I think Phantasmal Force was probably inspired by the way magic worked in the Kalevala-based "Wall of Snakes", where enchantments were deadly unless you saw through them, in which case they became harmless. I'd love to hear an actual example of how Phantasmal Force was used back then, to see if my hunch is right.Rodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13049576082482175075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621016516937695074.post-16629208811153556212008-11-25T15:32:00.000-05:002008-11-25T15:32:00.000-05:00I have the 6th printing, the good old "OCE&qu...I have the 6th printing, the good old "OCE". <BR/><BR/>I just inferred the usage of the word turn, both from the text and from common everyday usage (i.e.; "Okay, that's it for the bad guys. It's your turn!")<BR/><BR/>I could have sworn I've seen the phrase "melee turn" in D&D somewhere, but I just did a search on my PDF and didn't find it. It's entirely possible I just <I>believe</I> that that's the way it works, based on having played so much AD&D before coming to D&D.<BR/><BR/>Actually, I just now found it in Greyhawk, six times. In one instance, in the description of the Delayed Blast Fireball, it specifically states that the blast can be delayed "...up to 10 melee turns (or one movement turn)."<BR/><BR/>So that's where I was getting it from.Will Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06379173017869751088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621016516937695074.post-75948707578333255732008-11-25T15:09:00.000-05:002008-11-25T15:09:00.000-05:00David: Yeah, I'm still puzzled over Dispell Ma...David: Yeah, I'm still puzzled over Dispell Magic. Although the usage of 'turn' might make more sense after Will's comments.<BR/><BR/>Will: Good take on Invisibility, as it does read 'person or thing'.<BR/><BR/>Keep in mind I am reading from the OCE (6th) printing. Vol. 3, p. 8 states that there are 'ten rounds of combat per turn'. A move/turn having been defined earlier on that same page as 'approximately ten minutes', and that 'two moves constitute a turn'.<BR/><BR/>It's possible that this info is another example of amended text between OD&D versions, and that the authors didn't bother to change the usage of the term 'turn' in other areas (like spells). <BR/><BR/>That makes sense. What printing do you have, Will? Oh, and thanks for the comments!<BR/><BR/>Wayne: Thanks! My intent was almost to read it as if I had never played D&D before, nor read any other TSR material. That notion didn't last very long, but I still hope to pull out a few nuggets of potential home-brewing here and there.Sham aka Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14329116400656617173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621016516937695074.post-73123558903351666532008-11-25T14:24:00.000-05:002008-11-25T14:24:00.000-05:00There are no ‘counter spells’ in D&D as I have...<EM>There are no ‘counter spells’ in D&D as I have come to understand the term (a reactionary anti-spell cast to foil another caster’s spell).</EM><BR/><BR/>I have to say, your read-through is really great for coming up with ideas for house rules that flow naturally from the OD&D rules in all their peculiarities. Yesterday I came up with a whole bunch of kinds of death ray; today it's a simple system for counter-spells. Great fun!Wayne Rossihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11347401495298367324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621016516937695074.post-5719727534656077352008-11-25T11:34:00.000-05:002008-11-25T11:34:00.000-05:00“Invisibility: Range 24” ”Yes, in this version you...<I> “Invisibility: Range 24” ”<BR/><BR/>Yes, in this version you can turn things invisible from 240 feet away! Whether they like it or not, I suppose. Long time players of D&D know the limitations of being invisible, and it is important to remember that this spell is not as powerful as it might at first seem. It is still a useful, iconic spell in the D&D repertoire.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>It seems this was much more likely intended to be cast on objects than on people. See also the earlier spell, "See Invisible (Objects)". A great way to hide treasure!<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><I>Oh, and duration 1 turn. Either I ignore that duration, use the white-out on it, or assume it is intentional. Surely the Fire Ball does not ‘burn’ for 10 minutes.</I><BR/><BR/>It wouldn't burn for ten minutes; it would burn for one minute. You must keep in mind the difference between a move turn and a melee turn (which was not officially called a "melee round" until AD&D).<BR/><BR/>There's also the move turn in the outdoors, which is one day (see Volume III).<BR/><BR/>So, depending on the context, a turn is either one minute (melee), ten minutes (dungeon exploration), or one day (outdoor exploration).<BR/><BR/><BR/>Gotta say, Sham, I love this series. So much good stuff here! Keep up the good work.Will Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06379173017869751088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621016516937695074.post-47235538779194567492008-11-25T10:08:00.000-05:002008-11-25T10:08:00.000-05:00And what is this ‘countered’ business?Hmmm. Consid...<I> And what is this ‘countered’ business?</I><BR/><BR/>Hmmm. Considering the Haste/Slow definition of "countering," I'd assume that Dispell Magic was "countered" by other Dispell Magic spells operating in the area at the time of casting. Which would imply that the spell does indeed create a sort of anti-magic zone after it is cast...within the range of 120 feet, I guess?David Larkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04133630988557116729noreply@blogger.com